Red Lion Inn, Dunchurch - 5th November 1605

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barrie
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Red Lion Inn, Dunchurch - 5th November 1605

Post by barrie » Fri Nov 02, 2007 7:20 pm

It grows late
and grey -
candlelit
remnants of day.
Shadows, like memories,
flit in dustwebbed corners,
wedging secrets,
and night’s insects;
urging moths
to sacrifice their wings
in candleflame –

Hope burns and drops,
sets quickly in the wax,
then dies amongst the crumbs
on ale stained table tops.

--------------------

The Red Lion Inn was where the Gunpowder Plotters waited for news of Fawkes' attempt to blow up Parliament.

Yes - It's an old one - but it's Bonfire Night! (nearly)

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Re: Red Lion Inn, Dunchurch - 5th November 1605

Post by David » Fri Nov 02, 2007 7:50 pm

An oldie but a goodie. I remember liking this one first time around.

The Red Lion Inn was where the Gunpowder Plotters waited for news of Fawkes' attempt to blow up Parliament. Found a pic here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunchurch

Good stuff Barrie. Do you have any plots against Parliament under way at the moment?

Cheers

David

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Re: Red Lion Inn, Dunchurch - 5th November 1605

Post by barrie » Sat Nov 03, 2007 10:03 am

Thanks David.

No. I'm not plotting against Parlezvous - It's like a great beast that grows another head if you manage to chop one off - Better the head you know. Besides, they would never let me in Westminstrel.

Penny for the Guy?

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Re: Red Lion Inn, Dunchurch - 5th November 1605

Post by makowski » Sat Nov 03, 2007 11:08 am

Shadows, like memories
that's so old. a lot of people before You was writing similar things.
what is the point, to write about old tales in old metaphors? and it is about whole poem. sorry :)

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Re: Red Lion Inn, Dunchurch - 5th November 1605

Post by barrie » Sat Nov 03, 2007 12:06 pm

Shadows, like memories
that's so old. a lot of people before You was writing similar things.
- I've just googled "shadows like memories" (quotion marks included) - came up with seven hits, two of which were from the same source. For something so old, it doesn't seem to have been used much.
what is the point, to write about old tales in old metaphors?
What's the point in writing about anything? Is there a list of subjects that we are forbidden to use in poetry? - I didn't know that.
The 'old tale' is an event in British history which is still celebrated every year on November 5th. You don't seem to think it pointless telling us about what happened to you - Do you consider your history more important or relevant to poetry than a a nation's history?
If you don't like it just say so. A poem can take anything as its subject - Don't you agree?

cheers

Barrie
Last edited by barrie on Sat Nov 03, 2007 3:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Red Lion Inn, Dunchurch - 5th November 1605

Post by Merlin » Sat Nov 03, 2007 12:09 pm

Liked this Barrie...haven't seen it before... :shock:

Very well written, reads nicely...

I prefer the main (1st) verse...the end quatrain doesn't have the same poetic features (imo) :twisted: ....although of course it concludes well.....can you improve the concluding Quart? :twisted:

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Re: Red Lion Inn, Dunchurch - 5th November 1605

Post by makowski » Sat Nov 03, 2007 2:15 pm

What's the point in writing about anything? Is there a list of subjects that we are forbidden to use in poetry? - I didn't know that.
The 'old tale' is an event in British history which is still celebrated every year on November 5th. You don't seem to think it pointless telling us about what happened to you - Do you consider your history more important or relevant to poetry than a a nation's history?
If you don't like it just say so. A poem can take anything as its subject - Don't you agree?
You get me wrong. i didn't mean that some topic are forbiden and some not. i just ment, that You've wrote an old-fasioned poem, using well known metaphors.
i don't have anything to british history :) i'm studying history in Poland so i know what you mean :)

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Re: Red Lion Inn, Dunchurch - 5th November 1605

Post by beautifulloser » Sat Nov 03, 2007 3:20 pm

Nice one - this dug out from the vaults, Baz?

I think it's all been said, S2 was my fave, can imagine the scene, and this one is just a beaut:

then dies amongst the crumbs
on ale stained table tops


Makowski, man (or do you prefer, "The Dude"?) - are you Polish, then? I know a lot of Polish guys, I think there's a tad of a cultural clash on here, your post seems a little obtuse, such are the differences I've experiened in ettiqutte - You might not care, I don't, but perhaps a suggestion for improvement might make you seem less like a twat . . . . . even though I think you're probably not aware of that and just being honest in your crit you might want to pay it some attention . . .

For example, I think the comment should have been "it seems like it's been used before" - like a song by McCartney or something "sitting there waiting for someone to grab it".

Nice and topical!
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Re: Red Lion Inn, Dunchurch - 5th November 1605

Post by makowski » Sat Nov 03, 2007 4:14 pm

Makowski, man (or do you prefer, "The Dude"?) - are you Polish, then? I know a lot of Polish guys, I think there's a tad of a cultural clash on here, your post seems a little obtuse, such are the differences I've experiened in ettiqutte - You might not care, I don't, but perhaps a suggestion for improvement might make you seem less like a twat . . . . . even though I think you're probably not aware of that and just being honest in your crit you might want to pay it some attention . . .
yes, i'm Polish and i know exactly what you mean. the reason why i'm not suggesting any improvement is because i don't have enought language abilities. i can read a poem, and for most of the time i can understand what i'm reading. the problem is starting when i have to use advance english, and when we're speaking about poetry, to make any point, you have to know english better than me.
thats all.
regards.

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Re: Red Lion Inn, Dunchurch - 5th November 1605

Post by barrie » Sat Nov 03, 2007 6:23 pm

Thanks Merl - How tastes differ - I preferred the final quatrain.

Thanks BL - You be careful with those fireworks, d'y'hear?

Thanks Mak - I wouldn't say it was an old fashioned poem, just a poem about an event from the past. I'd be interested if you could point out the well known metaphors.

cheers all

Barrie

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Re: Red Lion Inn, Dunchurch - 5th November 1605

Post by beautifulloser » Sat Nov 03, 2007 7:04 pm

Yeh, yeh - I'm hearing ya Bazza.

Mak - no offence intended, like, just telling it as I see it.

Now where's that petrol bomb . . . . .
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Re: Red Lion Inn, Dunchurch - 5th November 1605

Post by makowski » Sat Nov 03, 2007 9:48 pm

I'd be interested if you could point out the well known metaphors.
let's go: "Shadows, like memories"
-comparing shadows to memories is as old as the invention of the wheel.

"urging moths
to sacrifice their wings
in candleflame"
-moths in the flames; sacrifice, imagination, metaphore of dreamers, like Icar (ancient greek). old as well.

"Hope burns"
- burning hopes? do i have to say anything? :)

always hapy to help. no offence. :)

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Re: Red Lion Inn, Dunchurch - 5th November 1605

Post by barrie » Sun Nov 04, 2007 10:19 am

Mak - You mentioned the simile shadows like memories - I thought we'd dealt with this one. I'll say again - I googled the phrase "shadows like memories", there were seven references, two of which were quoted from the same source.

About the moth/candle/hope metaphor - lets take the whole quote shall we -

urging moths
to sacrifice their wings
in candleflame –

Hope burns and drops,
sets quickly in the wax,
then dies amongst the crumbs
on ale stained table tops.


The moths are the plotters who sacrificed their freedom for a cause they believed in, they were either killed avoiding capture, executed, or imprisoned. The moths are also the hope that burns and drops in the candleflame, setting quickly in the wax of history - people still visit the Red Lion Inn. I can't recollect that metaphor being used before. Or maybe you are saying that any metaphor that uses moths or candles is too old. Does this also include metaphors about the sea, mountains, rivers, people, the moon, sun, the seasons etc, are they also too old to use. Surely it depends on how they are used that gives them originality. If I'd said like a moth to a candleflame, then I would have held my hand up.

Barrie

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Re: Red Lion Inn, Dunchurch - 5th November 1605

Post by emuse » Sun Nov 04, 2007 5:04 pm

Barrie don't kick me but I'm going to have to agree with Mak on this. Sometimes we have to "kill the little darlings" and in this case, shadows/memories is not a fresh image. You might consider:

Shadows, like spiders,

or some other insect since you speak of the moth later on.

I will also agree with hope/burns. I would find another verb.

I like the concept of the poem and the setting. I believe it's effective and sets a tone.

flit in dustwebbed corners,
wedging secrets, (love "flit" and "wedging" as verbs)
and night’s insects;
urging moths
to sacrifice their wings
in candleflame –

Also the idea of a flame "urging" a moth to it has an an interesting implication. A good one.

e

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Re: Red Lion Inn, Dunchurch - 5th November 1605

Post by barrie » Sun Nov 04, 2007 11:13 pm

Thanks e

I must disagree with you here. You can say hope burns is a cliche, but only in the context of hope burning bright, ie - a beacon of hope. I can't recollect incinerated hope being used as part of any metaphor I've come across.

I can't honestly say that I've heard shadows like memories used as a simile before, let alone be classed as cliche.

cheers

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Re: Red Lion Inn, Dunchurch - 5th November 1605

Post by Minstrel » Mon Nov 05, 2007 12:14 am

I can't honestly say that I've heard shadows like memories used as a simile before, let alone be classed as cliche.
I have to say, neither have I. Initially I thought I must have, because it seems like such an obvious simile. Or even 'memories like shadows'. Yet can't recall where I might have heard it or, as you say, find it anywhere!

This poem I think needs to be heard. Your accent gives it its proper flavour.

(can be found in audio feature section folks) a seriously neglected aspect ofthe forum.

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Re: Red Lion Inn, Dunchurch - 5th November 1605

Post by barrie » Tue Nov 06, 2007 12:47 am

Thanks Dave -

Good idea, plugging the audio section - I tend to neglect it myself.

Didt ‘ear worree said - gu theer un listen to this, it’ll teych thit speyk English gradely weel!

Barrie

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Re: Red Lion Inn, Dunchurch - 5th November 1605

Post by beautifulloser » Tue Nov 06, 2007 2:20 am

Baz - I burnt my face off.

shadows like memories - I'm with minstrel.

I think the thing is with that line, like I said before, it's a like a McCartney belter of a chord progression - we should have all thought of it (like Yesterday, and oooo Michelle that's a beauty if not sweet enough to make you puke).

I don't profess to having devoured as much as you lot who, you know, read a lot of stuff but it doesn't sound dated, or overused just - well, familiar . . . .

Good mention on the audio section - weird that, I've dug about in there, it does help hearing poets speak when you then come to read there stuff afterward I've noticed . . . . there's the MP3 upload thang, think mic's are only ten quid or so, 30 seconds of audio's only got a be 200kb or something . . .

Just a thought, might get everyone switched on to it . . . . posting the poem and the reading. Perhaps, we could even do with a new section on the forum for Performance Poetry to get everyone in the spirit of having a bash?

Hope you all enjoyed a display of some sort yesterday.
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Re: Red Lion Inn, Dunchurch - 5th November 1605

Post by barrie » Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:08 pm

Thanks BL.

You're right - the audio section has a lot of potential, yet only a handful of us have used it. It just gives the written word that extra dimension, plus I like listening to the different accents. I'd like to hear Oskar doing his Philp Larkin Look-Alike. Why don't you submit something - you know it makes sense.

on yer mikes.

Barrie

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Re: Red Lion Inn, Dunchurch - 5th November 1605

Post by Lake » Thu Nov 27, 2008 4:41 am

Hi Barrie,

Just finished reading Gunpowder Plot from Wikipedia, which really helps understand this poem. Is the word 'guy' originated from Guy Fawkes? That's quite a different celebration atmosphere between this and Thanksgiving. Anyway, happy November.

Cheers,

Lake

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Re: Red Lion Inn, Dunchurch - 5th November 1605

Post by Sharra » Thu Nov 27, 2008 9:06 am

I read this, wondering how I'd missed it when it was first posted, then noticed the OP date.
I'm guessing there's no point in a proper crit - just wanted to say how much I enjoyed this, I'm glad it managed to get bumped up :)
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Re: Red Lion Inn, Dunchurch - 5th November 1605

Post by bobvincent » Thu Nov 27, 2008 10:31 am

The evocative images show your talent, Barrie. You should apply it to something more important in your own life , which is relevant to other people's experience of life,

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Re: Red Lion Inn, Dunchurch - 5th November 1605

Post by Sharra » Thu Nov 27, 2008 1:27 pm

You should apply it to something more important in your own life
How rude!
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Re: Red Lion Inn, Dunchurch - 5th November 1605

Post by ray miller » Thu Nov 27, 2008 1:42 pm

I would have thought "urging moths to sacrifice their wings in candleflame" has some relevance in the contemporary world and for all of us. Asking persistently the writers of reflective poems why they don't harness their talents " to their own lives" is not actually much of a critique, bob. You're beginning to sound like a mixture of Henry Ford and Tony Blair - History is bunk, let's move on.
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Re: Red Lion Inn, Dunchurch - 5th November 1605

Post by David » Thu Nov 27, 2008 4:43 pm

This one just keeps coming around, don't it? I still like it.

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